Sorry for late response, but I'm going aggressively participate in this the
most interesting thread!


I'm completely agree with you on this.

It looks like you were trying to shot down the discussion.
It's your words we see here:


It sound like very very bad man named Bruno trying to do
some unimaginable harm to still young NodeJS :)
Maybe you were too tired or something else but please notice that Bruno
never operate in this kind of style.
I personally admire the way how Bruno highly intelligently and highly
logically lead the discussions.

Beside underscore concept implemented in streamline has a huge perspective.
I will explain later why I think so.
Anyway it's pretty good that you are participate here.
You made the discussion more interesting.

The main winning is that we are pretty close to start some changes in
NodeJS land.
Finally I see a bunch of people that are angry enough to make the move.

People in NodeJS used to follow core team solutions only.
It seems that responsibility for every mayor part of functionality they
delegate to Ryan and his team.

When they suddenly heard about "domain" functionality, they just thanks
full to have something new and somehow useful. You know, NodeJS in some way
looks like kinder garden not from code point of view but from culture/
organizational points. At least they don't ask permission go to bathroom :)

The NodeJS team are saying that we are keeping core as small as possible.
Everybody is agree with this statement. Of course it seems logical.
But I believe that power to decide what should be include in the core must
be shared in some way with community.

Who knows maybe someone could make better proposal comparing to the
"domain" proposal.
At least suggest better name for this kind of functionality :)

Bruno's the biggest mistake is that he didn't write proposal to include
support for streamline's concept at least in some experimental version of
NodeJS! Tim eventually should do the same and some other solutions from
community deserve some chance to make in core starting from
experimental/flavor version of NodeJS.

It's impossible. It would be nice to have something that will help any kind
of ideas to survive in NodeJS chaos.

In fact I know what should be done. You know, any idea is like a baby. You
have to take extra care and be protective with it. In many cases people
should fight for their ideas much harder then they do. Tim should take
example from Bruno how to fight for idea :)

My hope is that you will go with upper_score movement after I will describe
what it means more precisely.

Let's see about it :)
There are some people that could be united under some ideas.
In fact, some of your comments improve the chance to united them :)

Exactly!
The thing is that NodeJS core team doesn't have to say such thing about
their solutions.
Isn't it?
Shall we change it?

I have some questions.
1) What is the procedure to decide what should be included in NodeJS core?
2) What is the procedure to promote some idea from community to the NodeJS
core?
3) What do you think about introducing some rules in NodeJS space?
4) Do we need to build some kind of infrastructure for NodeJS ecosystem?
5) What kind of changes you see would be good to introduce in NodeJS land?
6) Would you participate in this kind of activities considering your open
mind/madness? :)
7) Are you going to ignore these kind of questions ? :)

Thanks in advance!

In case you have polished workable idea, would you prefer to have a clearly
defined way to promote it to the top?
If answer is "YES" then you belong to upper_score group.

NodeJS is not just some kind of open source project with limited power.
You are investing your time to work with NodeJS, and usually every investor
would like to have some influence over the system.

Again NodeJS is not regular open-source project.
I'm not suggesting democracy.
I'm ready to describe quite different from dictatorship and republic
political system.
People should understand that we need to have here some kind of political
system.

There are a big chance that we will meet some resistance to just explicitly
defined political system for NodeJS.
After all if we have here dictatorship then somebody should declare
it explicitly.

The Java ecosystem in general belong to Oracle.
Question is to whom belong the NodeJS?
Who is going to decide the way NodeJS is going?

I hope you understand that NodeJS has very significant economic potential.
I'd like to have possibility to promote my or other people ideas to some
area of NodeJS.
For some things it's not enough to be located in user land :)

I just wrote proposal that is called upper score land.
This way you or somebody else will have a chance to make the kind of
proposal you have suggested and promote it to the top. You could support my
proposal to improve the chance to get something good in area of low level
construct. We need some incentives to push experiments in area of flow
control libraries further.

Practically nobody except of authors of the libraries participate in their
fight.
It's wasting time for other members of community to participate in this
because there is no winning here and no prize!
Eventually some of these kind of projects will die.
They will die because they don't have enough time to lead endless debates.
No one from them will never get enough support to survive.

People are not motivated here to make this kind/level of proposal.
After all they have dictator :)

People told me many things including that America is my enemy (I was born
in Soviet Union).
I'm not going to follow rules that I don't like.
I'm going to try to make a new rules here.
And to push new rules we need advanced voting system in this place.

It's a very primitive kind of infrastructure.

I will talk and talk and spend my time more and more and Ryan or Issac will
tell me "I don't care".
Thank you very much for your suggestion!
Do you see many suggestions for changes in the core from members of this
community?

Sorry, but I do believe if I have some idea and this idea will got
significant support I have the right to push the core team to follow this
idea.

My users push me to make some changes in existing or new functionality.
So what the hell I'm going to do the same here.

I'm not Bruno. I'm not going to say "I don't care Isaac about your opinion".
I do care. Sometimes, I will try to make you care about what myself or
other people thinking.

Sometimes to make a thing alive you need hello-war sample :)

I'm not going to rank people.
NodeJS by nature is shareable/virtual kind of property.
*All of us participating in creating this property.*
It's natural to share power and eventually profit from this property.
Of course to do it properly you need appropriate business infrastructure.
Definitely having email list is not enough :)
By the way it's really basic stuff I'm talking about.

I disagree on it. For example I would like to make from Javascript language
some kind of data structure.
Data structure is good for transformation, language is not.
Streamline library is a good start point in this direction.

I could be completely wrong on this, but I have the right to have a real
chance to promote this idea to the core using voting system.
Every knows that competition of ideas is good thing to have!
So I'm trying to introduce some competition to the core team decisions.
Is it too much to ask?

You should understand better then me that some things must go up.
And I'm not talking about some driver for database.

Sorry Bruno, your technology/approach is going to undefined land :)
Seems only I see that some projects/ideas are dying.

We are not customers here!
Any customer has explicit right to request some changes!
You have the right to say "thank you" to the core team :)

You obviously don't understand very important thing.
The nodeJS is not a project.
It's ecosystem.
Do you understand difference between someone project and ecosystem?

You obviously do not understand very basic economic things.
It's not just peace of software.
Ecosystem is a big property.
This property is not properiatery kind of property.
This property cost nothing without regular members of community!
Do you understand this?

It's not free software.
I'm investing my time to promote and build this property.
Keep at least in mind that this property including not just core modules.
I'm telling you this is virtual kind of property.
And we all have the right to share this property and to make profit from it.
I know how to do it in clean way.
What you have to do just ask for more details :)

Is it too hard for you to think differently in economic/politic realm?
I can believe people think everything is fine here.
We don't MS SQL driver in this land?
Why I'd like to ask?
Because the core team didn't ask mister Microsoft to help us on this.
It's simple thing to do.

Why I don't have the way to request to make this move from the core team?
I should have!
I'm investing my time in this ecosystem.

It's not cool to have dictator and follow his way like children.
Ryan should understand that we need a new kind of political system here or
our real potential will be pretty limited.

I have *request* that somebody from the top of NodeJS ask Microsoft to help
with MS SQL driver implementation.
How long should I wait for response?

You don't read me at all.
You just suspect :)
Sometimes you have pretty weak arguments.
In this regard I recommend to take some lessons from Bruno :)

Let's take for example this kind of argument:
"Microsoft is helping tremendously with the node project."
You think that using the word "tremendously" will help me understand why we
don't have support from Microsoft in implementing MY SQL driver
implementation.

One day ago you were honest person in my eyes.
As honest person you should say *"I don't care about having MSSQL driver in
NodeJS land!".*
And you are not saying it :)

I hope at least somebody will understand why you refused to do it.
You don't care to explain why, you just suspect that I'm troll.
Great logic!

P.S.
Isaac, you should read your very recent blog, at least some parts of it :)

I own you apology for my recent tone to you.
I had hope that you also believe that we need some political changes.
Believe me, I'm the last person who would fight with you.
I guess my way of thinking just some how different from people here :)
Thank you!

Just recently I have participated in thread where people were looking for
MS SQL driver.
So I'm not alone who ask for it.

Maybe you should start to understand there are different opinions exists :)

It looks like you are correct here.
My apology to all for using the word "we".

I should agree with you on this.
It's a good thing that people here let me know this pretty quickly.
I didn't lose too much time during my political activity :)
Maybe some day you will understand me better.
Anyway, please continue work with NPM in good mood.
After all, I'm using NPM and I'm happy with it :)

We are trying migrate to MySQL completely but in mean time my team have to
work with both MS SQL and MySQL.
This is one of the reason why we are still mostly working with Java.
Thank you, for clearing up this matter.

It's not that powerful as you used to believe.

Author of firebug worked during at least one year on his product.
Eventually he asked developers for donations to support himself financially
otherwise he would stop working on the firebug. Later he was hired
by Mozilla and everything is fine at least from financial point of view for
him.

You should understand that firebug being extremely successful project still
in some moment didn't provide financial security for his author. I could
provide you many other examples that will prove my point regarding weakness
of open software model. Fix this kind of situations would be not too hard
in case if we will be able to integrate virtual currency in developer's
ecosystem. But you and many others are really too protective, sometimes it
seems too scary even listen something like this. Mindset of the typical
programmer is very far from this kind of topic.

I could agree that typical developer ecosystem such Java or PHP is just
peace of software. But we could create something much more powerful than
it. And the main key is the money. In our case virtual money.

For me money is not just stuff to buy fancy car or pay for dinner.
Money is the best mechanism to control and distribute any kind of resources.

I'd like to have possibility to pay for MS SQL driver implementation with
virtual currency :)

I got many responses including yours in this thread so at least to some
degree it was accident.

NodeJS ecosystem doesn't have one easy and common way to vote or ask for
something.
Some people who are using NodeJS aren't subscribed to this email list.
Beside it's easy to miss thread that is gathering opinions or support for
something.
So we can't calculate exact number of people who would benefit from having
the driver.
Anyway I will try to get people to vote for it.
Thank you!

To have more freedom it's time to kill state's monopoly to produce and
control money.

My project is quite a big one.
I'm not that wealthy to pay for everything I will need on the way.
There is only one way for me to make it works.
Going with more advanced business model comparing to what exist now will
improve my chance significantly.

I have suggestion for you and some others developers.
Subscribe to Seth Godin's blog.
Here is the link: http://www.sethgodin.com
He is writing every single day.
Read just one week what he has to say and you will understand what I'm
talking about a little bit better.
Please, take this as advice from friend.

*We are All Idiots.*
*
*
I love this part :)

I wrote some response to you in pretty radical style.
But I decided to delete it because I don't have yet "Hello War" demo :)
Beside I'm really busy now with some stuff.
Regarding your honesty it was stupid thing to say. I'm taking this back.
But that's all I could take back.

*
*
*For future*
I should warn you, more debates with me then more changes to this world.
The best defense for you is to ignore me :)
Sometimes it will be real hard to do.

I was about to ask developers to say "YES" to MS SQL driver.
It's a great news.
Population of this community soon will be much much bigger.

I have started to watch your project.
Please announce in this email list when simple queries will be ready to try.
Thank you!

Please say "YES" to the idea having MS SQL Driver for NodeJS ecosystem.

Why to do it?
1) If you need to work with MS SQL Server
2) If you support the idea to increase population of NodeJS ecosystem
3) If you wanna that Microsoft keep putting resources here

*YES*

Thank you for participating in voting.
I'm wondering how many *NO* we will have here.
I'm asking only to think twice before you said *NO.*

Some people already have started to do some job in this direction:
https://github.com/pekim/tedious
Author have said - simple queries will work pretty soon.
Shall we see more projects in this thread?

It's about motivation for author of the driver.
I'm the last person to think - we need permission for it :)

It could be the next move upper score movement :)

I'm homeless and pretty stupid.
So I'm trying to explore some other option then you have suggested :)
People should understand - there are idiots that can't do stuff.
All they can do that just asking.
When I came to America one thing that helped me to survive is *MS SQL SERVER!*
I'm paying my debts!
And I believe you should take example from me in this regard :)

core team do this.
Don't worry, eventually they will get this part :)

I understand your point. I really do.
There is a way to share power and profit.
Isaac recently said - *we are all idiots.*
I'm just trying to fix this problem.

You know, I listen this community and I care about members of community.
Believe in this statement is up to you.
I'm not asking to have influence on the core team anymore.
I'm not asking to share power with them.
I understand now the current situation a little bit better.
The thing is that core team don't have the political power.
They just don't see it.
It's just not possible to ask for sharing the power from people who don't
use it :)

I'm asking for power to share this power with you and everybody who like to
have power.
So please if you need something just ask community!
I'm going to change some rules here.
I'm going to teach them to respect need of others people.
Then we will have unlimited power for all of us.

Are you giving up all political power to me?
What I can say?
It's fine I'm grateful!

Great!
Beside your personal needs it's a real way to say thank you to mister
Microsoft.
He is our partner after all!
Our ecosystem will be expand significantly.
I'm happy about it.

This place is market.
We are need more competition here because it's good to have competitive
market.

Your intent should be to fight for this market from Microsoft side.
There is exists strong resistance to expand this market.
Ask your boss permission to fight if you need it.

I'm declaring you the first official traitor of the NodeJS land!
If this title is too heavy for you just let me know :)
You did awesome job explaining some basic stuff to the people of NodeJS.

In fact it was pretty big surprise for me also.
They called me radical but if you take more closer look, many of them are
so extreme than any radical could even imagine.
So I decide they need a good amount of stress to start thinking differently.
In other words they need mental treatment. It's good think that I have some
experience in this area :)

I'm also "enterprise" developer. This space is dominated by tools maker
people.
Just calculate how many times they suggested to "Enterprise" developer to
write database driver :)
Definitely they need some treatment.

They need a motivation.
This is a human nature.

I was helping to fight someone with mental problems.
And I had very limited time to do it.
Try to spend night with crazy person and you will understand how stress
work on you.

You see, you need some treatment.
Is it too hard for you to say "YES" or "NO" to MS SQL driver?
I suppose you said "NO".
You can have this thread I'm not that greedy :)

The first thing to do is relax a little bit and then start looking for
movie - "How to stop revolution".
I'm closing this thread.
Thank you everybody for active participation.

Would you like to help me with designing and implementing the voting system?
The reason is that in near future it will take too much time for me to get
some statistics after voting.
I know we have our differences but collaboration between "enterprise" and
"toolkit" developers could bring the great benefit to the community.
Voting system is just marketing tools.

Is there some way to get your help on this?
Should we put this to vote?
We could do some bet.
For example put my suggestion to vote.
If I won you do help me.
In case you won I will keep silence and work quietly on my "Hello Deviant
World!" demo during tree months.
I mean no more political activities in this place until March 2012 in case
you are winner.

Developers need some entertainment. We have to provide it.
If you afraid to put this bet to vote that's fine.
In case you agree to do it I will take one week to make some preparations
before starting actual voting.
I hope you understand that you have a big advantage in this bet.
That why I need to do some preparations.

There is a company called nodejitsu <http://nodejitsu.com/> that provide
some hosting solutions.
Probably it's a very stupid suggestion but maybe they could do something in
direction of supporting Microsoft stack. I have no idea if it's possible
for them to do it.

Tomorrow, I will put some statistics here.
We will see how many MSSQL YES/NO AND UNICORNS we got here :)
So please keep voting and do some comments (including negative) to make
statistics more valuable.

I need one more voice here to finished with statistics.
*Nodejitsu **please let us know who you are.*
*
*
*People from Microsoft world would love to know you are mister YES, mister
NO or mister UNICORNS.*

I should say that you almost have started the war.
You give me a great excuse to do it that it was just impossible for me to
resist but start the process without being prepare for it.

I was about to pick up the very big prize in Bruno's war.
I was so close to declare the war against LOLCATS AND UNICORNS.
And believe me I would crush them all with my poor English skills without
any contribution to your lovely github :)
And you just stop the war!

So I'm not agree with you anymore regarding "WE ARE ALL IDIOTS".
This place just changed forever :)
Isaac, you are the winner here now.
We all are.

I'm going to start work on proposal regarding vote system.
And I think that enterprise developers can do much better this kind of jobs
comparing to tools makers :)
It's time to start competition for power.
Thank you everyone, we have no-war state now in NodeJS closure.